Curse

Swingline · Jan 29, 2011, 04:12 PM // 16:12

The only thing I hate that SF did is there are almost no balanced teams doing eotn dungeons unless the specific dungeon you want is the ZB that day. I also think its silly most dungeons can be done solo by a SF sin.

vitorvdp_68 · Jan 29, 2011, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Do you SF haters think that everyone who plays this game has a bunch of free time to spare? Take FoWsc for example. Around 25 - 30 minutes with PuG (if it doesn't fail). If you nerf SF what will that time become? 1 hour? More? That's if it even works. That's a lot of time to spend to open the chest once and get most likely crappy drops.

Doing SC's with your guild / alliance on vent - the most fun thing to do currently for a lot of people. Don't spoil it!

Essence Snow · Jan 29, 2011, 05:57 PM // 17:57

The main issue I see with invici builds (mainly SF ones) is that they are basically so OP that other options become redundant.

Tak UW for example...old SC got down to 7mins...Anet in an attempt to correct an "elite" area being rediculously easy to sc only slowed down the sc by 15mins or so. Every other option (non sc) of doing UW got the shaft b/c it increased the time to complete UW exponentially. So now the balanced teams really cannot reasonably complete UW. (by reasonably, I mean not devoting 1/2 day) Yes, I know there are some exceptions...but they are few and far between.

Also I believe that the nonsc playerbase is much larger than ya'll think. You just don't see them b/c they are not in sc areas doing sc's.

Missing HB · Jan 29, 2011, 06:01 PM // 18:01

On the other hand , is that normal than in a game such as GW , according to some of you , the only interest left is to abuse mobs AI 24/7 with THE skill ???

Let's face it : people get money by doing uw with SF , by doing fow with sf , by running almost any dungeon with SF. In fact , i don't mind a lot using SF , but the reward is usually too high for the job done ( i.e it's usually too easy to finish an area using SF , not much risk is involved compared to a normal team..)

I could talk as well about all consequences ( some items worth over 500e ( on GW begins , people did find droknar run expensive , whereas it was only 3-5k..), which is completly ridiculous ; people's arrogance ) . But well , we can't blame people for using the only viable build left , that's mainly all those bad updates that lead to this situation...

Bright Star Shine · Jan 29, 2011, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

the only viable build left

I already explained that in UW, eles and rangers are way stronger than ssins, same in FoW. Only places ssin is still the best option is DoA and dungeons.. So, the most popular areas are done better by other professions, and still ppl are QQing that the ssin is OP?

Essence Snow · Jan 29, 2011, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

I already explained that in UW, eles and rangers are way stronger than ssins, same in FoW. Only places ssin is still the best option is DoA and dungeons.. So, the most popular areas are done better by other professions, and still ppl are QQing that the ssin is OP?

SF is SF. SF doesnt always mean a sin. OF is extremely niche oriented...due to e costs and recharge. Kind of apples and oranges tbh...both fruit, but different none the less. It's pretty easy to see which skill is more exploitable.

chris12xu · Jan 30, 2011, 05:18 AM // 05:18

everything done with an SF build can be done with an OF build permanent spell protection is permanent spell protection every OF build has unlimited energy most of them getting anywhere from 5-2 energy gain every time they get hit with an attack the 25e to cast the skill and the -2 regen doesn't really matter when you have unlimited energy as long as your in aggro of something. OF > SF in every way but one and that's mobility that's why roles that need mobility are run by a sin and roles that need power are run by an ele. also SB can do pretty much anything OF and SF can but there no reason to run it since there's no real reason to ever use any monk skills other than SB. All 3 of these skills can be made into permanent spell protection so you should really put them all on the same level.

btw take another look at SB spells don't fail on SB all spell protection was changed from "Spells Fail" to "cannot be targeted by spells" there is currently no spell protection in pve that spells will fail on.

In a real speed clear different spell protection is used differently SF can not handle any job like it previously could the damage cap has force SF sins to do more specialized roles in speed clears since their DPS is relatively low. However a ranger can bypass this downfall with WD (for a price, rangers require personal consumables to run the build) dealing a massive amount of damage, but this is only a viable switch when you are dealing with opponents that attack at range against a group of pure melee enemies both ranger and assassins become very useless very fast. Eles on the other hand make up for what they lack in mobility with power an Ele can buff their sliver armor and use other high damage skills to pretty much power through any healing or defenses a mob will have. depending on the job that needs to be done you will choose what one is best for it. In the end nerfing only one would only force another to pick up the slack if your gonna nerf one then you have to do it all.

furthermore if your talking invincible builds then take a look at ER builds as well most of them use a combination of ER stoneflesh and kinetic armor to not even need spell protection while maintaining constant healing and unlimited energy allowing these types of builds to take the most abuse out of any of the the previously mentioned builds. also they are the only builds that can not only make themselves next to invincible but the whole team as well with the ability to maintain 8 prot bonds. ofc these builds to have their own drawback and thats enchantment strips will be a problem but they can sustain massively ridiculous energy and health demands even being able to sustain energy while using mantra of inscriptions and not ever dropping it while having interrupts spammed on them.

also tanking builds that can tank roughly 70-100 enemies that if a normal build went 1v1 with any of them the player would lose. These are truly invincible builds. Most of these builds also include unlimited energy. If these builds are run properly then a person will never die while using one.

if your going to say invincible builds need to be nerfed then you cant just single out one skill or build since there is more than one skill that makes such builds possible. if you wanna make a nerf SF topic then say that from the start but if your gonna say invincible builds then include all of them. And unlike most of the people in this thread that never actually used any of these skills so they don't even properly understand the drawbacks and advantages of each individual spell, I actually know what I'm talking about since I actively do just about every speed clear in the game.

Gabs88 · Jan 30, 2011, 11:04 AM // 11:04

SF prohibs all classes except for assassins to join human teams for most of this games elite areas. Right right right?

Nerf

Bright Star Shine · Jan 30, 2011, 12:45 PM // 12:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

SF prohibs all classes except for assassins to join human teams for most of this games elite areas. Right right right?

Nerf

FoW:

3 Assassins, 1 Ranger, 2 or 3 damage dealers, either mesmers, or 100b wars and a Necro or Ritualists with DwG + SoS rit. There actually used to be a build around that used a SH ele that SOLO SPIKED EVERYTHING that the mt balled up. So, you got everything but dervishes and paragons that can SC FoW (PUGs usually also take a UA to heal)

UW:
3 eles, 1 ssin, 2 rangers, a Rit and a Mesmer.

DoA:
2 ssins, 4 mesmers, 1 Monk, 1 Ele.

Now, tell me again that only ssins can do endgame. In UW it's proven that they suck and can be replaced easily, in FoW the same. In DoA, we need their mobility and agility that eles don't have, because they aren't there to kill stuff, they are there to tank stuff, which is killed by the main team.

SF prohibits all classes except for assassins to join human teams for most of this games elite areas. Right right right?

Shut up and do some research.

NerfHerder · Jan 30, 2011, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

FoW:

3 Assassins, 1 Ranger, 2 or 3 damage dealers, either mesmers, or 100b wars and a Necro or Ritualists with DwG + SoS rit. There actually used to be a build around that used a SH ele that SOLO SPIKED EVERYTHING that the mt balled up. So, you got everything but dervishes and paragons that can SC FoW (PUGs usually also take a UA to heal)

UW:
3 eles, 1 ssin, 2 rangers, a Rit and a Mesmer.

DoA:
2 ssins, 4 mesmers, 1 Monk, 1 Ele.

Now, tell me again that only ssins can do endgame. In UW it's proven that they suck and can be replaced easily, in FoW the same. In DoA, we need their mobility and agility that eles don't have, because they aren't there to kill stuff, they are there to tank stuff, which is killed by the main team.

SF prohibits all classes except for assassins to join human teams for most of this games elite areas. Right right right?

Shut up and do some research.

Take out SF from all those builds, and see what kind of SC times youll get. Now take away ER bonders, OF, and SB. And you might actually get a balanced group working as a team. End game content should be a challenge. And I dont care how skilled you are or what gimmicks you use, completing those areas should take at least an hour.

I find it interesting that so many people complain that HM is too easy. Yet if you take SF from them they would cry about it and swear to never play GW again. Yeah, SC's with SF is alot of fun. So was Ursan. So is Godmode when I play Quake.

I dont hate SF, as I find it rather difficult to hate something as imaginary as a skill, and something that I also use alot myself. But, shouldnt skill balance come before personal feelings? Even if it takes us out of our comfort zone? Where do you draw the line on something being OP? DwG is OP, but not SF?

Bright Star Shine · Jan 30, 2011, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

End game content should be a challenge. And I dont care how skilled you are or what gimmicks you use, completing those areas should take at least an hour.

This was true, 4 years ago, even up to 3 years ago.. But standards changed, people don't want to spend their entire afternoon trying to beat UW, FoW or DoA with the risk of ending up with a total shit reward. And btw, most PUG UW should be happy to finish in ~50mins (actually, PUG UW should be happy to finish would be the correct sentence) and I see more than enough DoA's that still take ~50mins cause of people being bad. It's not an hour, but close enough.
And now don't start talking bout records, because we might do DoA in 25 on those runs, but we actually spend 3h+ doing it. It's nicknamed /resign speedclear for a reason..

Quote:

DwG is OP, but not SF?

DwG is OP as a damage skill, SF is OP as a tanking skill. That's like comparing an apple to a cow. They have nothing to do with each other.

WarcryOfTruth · Jan 31, 2011, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

This was true, 4 years ago, even up to 3 years ago.. But standards changed, people don't want to spend their entire afternoon trying to beat UW, FoW or DoA with the risk of ending up with a total shit reward.

Why is it all about the rewards? Can people not do elite areas for the fun and challenge of it? That's why I do them, if teams I am on happen to die, I will still have a good time because I am with the people I enjoy playing with. The level of greed in this game has escalated to new heights because of speed clearing.

vitorvdp_68 · Jan 31, 2011, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Old topic is old. If you say the people who use SF will just have to deal with it if it gets nerfed, doesn't that mean people who complain about SF should deal with it the way it is now? That is most certainly not what is happening.

mage767 · Jan 31, 2011, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarcryOfTruth

Why is it all about the rewards? Can people not do elite areas for the fun and challenge of it? That's why I do them, if teams I am on happen to die, I will still have a good time because I am with the people I enjoy playing with. The level of greed in this game has escalated to new heights because of speed clearing.

True that. People got greedy and stupid - their intelligence has sunk to abysmal levels that they cannot see SF and Shroud of Distress are overpowered skills.

Indeed, sin skills need to be toned down, plus other classes will need more love, especially ele (in HM), para, derv and even ranger (in HM).

aspi · Jan 31, 2011, 03:01 PM // 15:01

I dont like the invinci skills but if people have fun playing them good for them.

NerfHerder · Jan 31, 2011, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by vitorvdp_68

If you say the people who use SF will just have to deal with it if it gets nerfed, doesn't that mean people who complain about SF should deal with it the way it is now?

I'm dealing with it very well. I got my Dhumm's Soul Reaper, Armbraces, maxed titles from Speed Booking, lots of gold and ectos from selling event items that I farmed from vaettirs, sold a couple nice endgame items like a BDS and froggy scepter, all thanks to my buddy SF. Until its nerfed I'm going to keep making more money than I know what to do with.

Just because I use SF alot, doesnt mean I dont think it's OP.

matter of time · Jan 31, 2011, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Just a question. Was anybody here succeeded in finalizing UW HM, not by a chance, but regularry, without a SF/OF/SB tank in team?

Missing HB · Jan 31, 2011, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by matter of time

Just a question. Was anybody here succeeded in finalizing UW HM, not by a chance, but regularry, without a SF/OF/SB tank in team?

It's possible to do all quests with 6 heroes ( realy , when you know how to control them it's easy..) but it takes some time and dhuum is kinda relying on luck... That's the same for normal pugs anyway... all know approximately to complete 10 quests , but when it comes to beating dhuum....

About comparaison between DwG and SF : do we even have to debate ? SF makes you invincible , thus even if you deal 5 damage per hit you will still end up killing ; You deal big damage with DwG but you can still drop fast too....
And anyway , DwG aren't used to complete FoW in 20mn or to ru nany dungeon in less than 15mn neither...

But once again , as i told , you can't blame people for abusing the best( maybe the only ) way to get money in game.... Assuming someone discovered a way to solo slavers exile in 30mn with mesmer ( just an example ) , everyone would for sure play it ...

Hobbs · Jan 31, 2011, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by matter of time

Just a question. Was anybody here succeeded in finalizing UW HM, not by a chance, but regularry, without a SF/OF/SB tank in team?

I did it with Ursan HURR DURR.

Seems to me that people have some moral objection to do content that is intended to be difficult easily. As far as i'm concerned 55 monks and Shadow Form tanks are examples of the player ingenuity in creating effective build which is at the heart of what makes Guild Wars a good game.

It's the fact that players can take a few skills which aren't particularly godlike in themselves, I mean SF is only ever used for that one purpose, and combine them in such a way which destroys PvE that makes Guild Wars fun.

Xiaquin · Jan 31, 2011, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hobbs

It's the fact that players can take a few skills which aren't particularly godlike in themselves, I mean SF is only ever used for that one purpose, and combine them in such a way which destroys PvE that makes Guild Wars fun.

This build requires Consumables to operate properly.